I totally agree! As with many "shoulds", including cards and flowers for random occasions, it's all industry led. Love and commitment are all that matters.
What gets me here is the "intervention" from your future ex-in-laws. YOUR truth here is that you never have bought into the institution of marriage, AND you have always been 100% committed to the spiritual partnership of a loving relationship.
Marriage as an institution isn't for everyone. if I looked at it as a government thing, I shouldn't have gotten officially married the second time. If we'd kept our legalities separate, I'd have far cheaper health insurance! However, if we'd kept our legalities and financials separate, we would also have a lot more to hassle with in terms of wills, estates, and medical health care directives down the line. I am not one to like that kind of hassle. It's just easier to say "I'm his wife." and because I have a marriage certificate, I have the rights bestowed upon me.
Weddings...now that I'm 100% in agreement with in terms of the stress and hassle. First wedding was all the traditional things with all the stress and cost...and turned out to be a big party for all our parents' friends (since they footed most of the bills).
For my second marriage, we didn't invite people. Because I am a shaman and we are both deeply spiritual, we did a series of 5 shaman rituals (one for each element: earth, water, fire, nature, mineral) over the course of a year. We figured it takes that long for deep-ritual to process and for a lifelong bond such as marriage to actually hold...especially since we both did the traditional thing the first time and that didn't work out well for either of us. The rituals were for us. About us. between us. in the presence of nature, where we could be raw, honest, and vulnerable and wildly absurd in our own true natures of ourselves.
The bottom line I see in this article is that it is so damn easy to fall prey/victim to the traditional and societal norms even when they don't feel right to you. Your choice your second time around was to choose SELF-ACCEPTANCE and do what feels right for you, not what society or future in-laws intervene to push on you. Good for you!
I love how you learned from your first marriage and did things differently in your current marriage. Of course, knowing who you are and what you're about, I'm not surprised. You live intentionally, so how else would you approach intimacy other than with care and attention over a long gestation period? I applaud you. And I hear you about the legal ramifications - that is a real consideration that I need to think through.
I feel deeply seen, Teri. Your penetrating comment means so much to me. Thank you for taking the time to write such a considerate comment.
I liked reading this perspective! I'm more of one to "try to have it all": the beautiful partnership where both people stay willingly, AND the marriage. Personally, I've been in situations where it sucked that I was just "the girlfriend" and didn't have the same rights as a wife would. Specifically in medical scenarios. Also, being able to share insurance would be nice!
I do get what you're saying - as someone who in a past relationship was GUNNING for marriage, I know what it's like to rush. But in my (waaaay healthier) partnership now, I still would like to be his wife, but wow is it nice to be able to settle back and wait rather than nag and beg and plead!!
Knowing this was thought-provoking puts a smile on my face, Niki. It sounds like you're in a more centered, grounded space today. Good growth! And I hear you about all the good things that come with marriage. It's a complex and complicated topic with no easy answers. As always, I'm grateful for your comment.
Thank you for your poignant words Ryan, having always thought of marriage as the ultimate happy ever after and been through two marriages and a failed relationship, I concur with you , marriage is ongoing work which can be beautiful if the two souls are together through thick and thin , however, we as humans are complex creatures and earlier on in our lives when we are young and lack wisdom we fail to communicate and sometimes work together due to whatever issues each might have . Sometimes, we go through trauma and that messes our entire being but I think even a relationship without marriage can have a similar effect especially if the two haven’t addressed their issues of emotional healing and continue to play along . I suppose the western culture is different from the eastern culture in a way that girls are controlled from a young age to be submissive and keep tolerating manipulation from a very young age . Marriage means living in a nuclear family and moving into the in-laws’s home and completely submitting to them , having children early etc etc . I agree that a marriage or a relationship is a means to an end i.e: a happily ever after . Maybe I am bitter about it all but to me a nurturing friendship is far better option than being miserable in a marriage or a relationship, having said all that I still dream of a happily ever after 😅
I appreciate you sharing vulnerably here, Kulsoom. Countless women can undoubtedly relate to what you wrote. "Happily ever after" is alluring, isn't it? I still believe emotionally that someday, I will arrive, even though intellectually, I know it's not true. I agree that nurturing friendships is fulfilling and worth considering if marriage is right and necessary.
I read yesterday that 86% of people remarry. I couldn’t believe that figure.
I’ve never understood the institution of marriage and never wanted it for myself. The tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people, as I heard someone say—or in your case, in-laws.
I’m a romantic to the core, yet still look at relationships as chapters. Enjoying it fully for what it is, however long it remains joyful, and walking away having learned something from each other. Just because something ends doesn’t mean it wasn’t successful. I think the problem lies in not accepting the true nature of life—that all things are impermanent.
Sounds like you always saw marriage for what it is and wanted no part of it.
Your view is wise, the same conclusion I've come to after years of seeing myself in relationship. I agree that the expectation that a relationship should last a lifetime may be the very source of our troubles. And that if we learned to fully experience each relationship and appreciate it for as long as it lasts, then we wouldn't see it ending as a failure but a success and the beginning of a new chapter, as you say. You have an enlightened view, Danielle.
This was great Ryan. I think so many of us are disillusioned with marriage especially after being burned once. A partnership should consist of willing participants, not trapped people.
Feels good to hear we share the same sentiments on the relationship topic. I like that "willing participants, not trapped people." Thanks for taking time to comment.
Interesting read, thank you, Ryan, I agree and have never been married for the reasons you stated. So many people are "brainwashed" into societal systems. I am in a happy, loyal relationship with a man who has similar philosophies, and who has never been married- no kids, either. Several people in my family also follow this philosophy, and they were my role models. I started writing my own version of why I chose to not marry, with my own words and experiences (yet to publish it).
It's interesting to learn about your choice not to marry and that family members inspired you. You're the first to leave such a comment. What we're exposed to, especially at a younger age, seems to significantly impact our adult choices. I'm grateful for your sharing and look forward to reading your essay.
With rates of divorce, the choice seems to be more popular. Some friends are choosing that route, too. Thanks for your thoughtful work! Those who have compassionate, empathetic rebel minds help create a better world!
By the way, I have two friends that want out of their long-term marriages and feel stuck because they don’t want to get a divorce. So, they linger in limbo. Meanwhile, I am free and living and loving life to the fullest!
This definitely offered an interesting perspective. It sucks you were pressured into marriage, and I lol’d at the future ex-in laws. (Wasn’t that also a line in a movie? Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly.) my husband and I got married with just us and 4 other people on the beach in CA. It was perfect for us and the whole thing cost like $2k including a dress. Personally, I didn’t have a good childhood so I’m very proud of the home I’ve created with my husband, and his love and loyalty has been a big part of my healing over the years, even if I am more of a free spirit who sometimes struggles with feeling tied down. Either way, marriage isn’t for everyone, and it’s good to know it’s not for you. Life’s all about the experiences anyway, and now you know for sure!
I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I'm glad that part made you laugh. I laughed while writing it. I admire you for the healing you've had to do to create a healthy home. As you know, peeling away the layers of conditioning is a never-ending task. You're right - there's no better teacher than first-hand experience. Glad you took the time to comment.
Ryan, I enjoyed reading this, and I think this is a very individual thing. I appreciate hearing your perspective and experiences, and how you personally feel. I remember when we decided to get married, and my husband asked me how permanence felt after he bought me a ring. We were older (48 and 52) when we got married, and neither of us had been married previously. We could have chosen not to have a big wedding, but we had a great time spending the day with family and loved ones. I think we had about 400 attending. We had a fun lunch for out of town guests afterwards at a Christian Retreat Center. We had the wedding at our church, and we didn't feel any pressure to buy expensive rings, we just did what we wanted to do. Some talented friends provided the music. To us, this ended up being a really special day, and neither of us got stressed or demanding. In our case, the spiritual covenant is what mattered to us, and simply sharing joy with people we love. A very dear Chinese couple came from out of state, and he is a pastor, so we loved having him share from Phil 2.
I do remember thinking about the wedding industry, though, and we made some conscious choices about the event, to do only what we both wanted to do. I have been to elaborate weddings where they spend a fortune on a fancy venue and thousands of dollars on the day. I often hope they invest more thought in the marriage relationship over the long term than they spent on this one day. I don't judge others choices, and as I said I liked reading your article and hearing how you feel about a partnership rather than marriage.
I'm glad for the maturing and growth that have happened within us as a result of living out the covenant we made. It's definitely not always easy, and sometimes I call marriage The Beautiful Struggle. We grow through persevering. For us, our faith has been central to our relationship, and we've been strengthened and helped by the commitment we made. It's not the government we care about, but building a life together as a family because we chose to do so.
It's interesting--just recently I wrote a draft for an article. I think I called it Love Stays. It's in my draft folder, but I release things whenever I decide the timing suits, so who knows when I'll do so. Blessings, my friend. Thanks for a thought-provoking article.
I'm glad you shared your experience with me, Susan. I enjoyed learning about what your wedding looked like and what your marriage meant to you. Your approach - keeping faith central to your relationship - is the right one and a mature perspective, in my view. Everything you shared sounds wonderful, but a relationship is not always easy, a "Beautiful Struggle," as you aptly put it. Thank you, as always, for your thoughtful and considered comment.
As someone navigating a separation headed for divorce, I really appreciate your perspectives here.
In reflection, marriage was an "insurance policy" for my wife and I. A way for me to make sure she never abandoned me the way my parents did, and a way for her to live the life she thought she was supposed to lead based on her own conditioning. As soon as a house and marriage came into the picture, our relationship did become about maintaining something instead of nurturing a creative partnership. I wonder if things would have turned out different if I had never proposed. Truthfully, there are many boundaries I could have raised, but didn't, in the name of safety and security.
Not that it would have unfolded any differently. But I'm taking this opportunity to learn my lessons and see what's worth carrying forward. This post certainly has given me much to chew on. Thank you, Ryan!
What a thoughtful and reflective comment, JJ. I'm sorry about your pending divorce. Even when it's for the best, it's painful and can be a traumatic experience. I was profoundly sad and disoriented after my ex-wife moved out. However, your senses appear wide open, and you're curious to see what you can learn and carry forward, as you say. I'm glad the post offered some things to chew on. Thanks for stopping by, and I wish you as little suffering as possible in your situation. After all, you're a human, not a statistic.
I totally agree! As with many "shoulds", including cards and flowers for random occasions, it's all industry led. Love and commitment are all that matters.
"Shoulds" make me shudder, Nancy. Anything that becomes a "have to" is misery for me. Feels good to learn I'm not alone here.
What gets me here is the "intervention" from your future ex-in-laws. YOUR truth here is that you never have bought into the institution of marriage, AND you have always been 100% committed to the spiritual partnership of a loving relationship.
Marriage as an institution isn't for everyone. if I looked at it as a government thing, I shouldn't have gotten officially married the second time. If we'd kept our legalities separate, I'd have far cheaper health insurance! However, if we'd kept our legalities and financials separate, we would also have a lot more to hassle with in terms of wills, estates, and medical health care directives down the line. I am not one to like that kind of hassle. It's just easier to say "I'm his wife." and because I have a marriage certificate, I have the rights bestowed upon me.
Weddings...now that I'm 100% in agreement with in terms of the stress and hassle. First wedding was all the traditional things with all the stress and cost...and turned out to be a big party for all our parents' friends (since they footed most of the bills).
For my second marriage, we didn't invite people. Because I am a shaman and we are both deeply spiritual, we did a series of 5 shaman rituals (one for each element: earth, water, fire, nature, mineral) over the course of a year. We figured it takes that long for deep-ritual to process and for a lifelong bond such as marriage to actually hold...especially since we both did the traditional thing the first time and that didn't work out well for either of us. The rituals were for us. About us. between us. in the presence of nature, where we could be raw, honest, and vulnerable and wildly absurd in our own true natures of ourselves.
The bottom line I see in this article is that it is so damn easy to fall prey/victim to the traditional and societal norms even when they don't feel right to you. Your choice your second time around was to choose SELF-ACCEPTANCE and do what feels right for you, not what society or future in-laws intervene to push on you. Good for you!
I love how you learned from your first marriage and did things differently in your current marriage. Of course, knowing who you are and what you're about, I'm not surprised. You live intentionally, so how else would you approach intimacy other than with care and attention over a long gestation period? I applaud you. And I hear you about the legal ramifications - that is a real consideration that I need to think through.
I feel deeply seen, Teri. Your penetrating comment means so much to me. Thank you for taking the time to write such a considerate comment.
I liked reading this perspective! I'm more of one to "try to have it all": the beautiful partnership where both people stay willingly, AND the marriage. Personally, I've been in situations where it sucked that I was just "the girlfriend" and didn't have the same rights as a wife would. Specifically in medical scenarios. Also, being able to share insurance would be nice!
I do get what you're saying - as someone who in a past relationship was GUNNING for marriage, I know what it's like to rush. But in my (waaaay healthier) partnership now, I still would like to be his wife, but wow is it nice to be able to settle back and wait rather than nag and beg and plead!!
Anyway, this was super thought provoking.
Knowing this was thought-provoking puts a smile on my face, Niki. It sounds like you're in a more centered, grounded space today. Good growth! And I hear you about all the good things that come with marriage. It's a complex and complicated topic with no easy answers. As always, I'm grateful for your comment.
Thank you for your poignant words Ryan, having always thought of marriage as the ultimate happy ever after and been through two marriages and a failed relationship, I concur with you , marriage is ongoing work which can be beautiful if the two souls are together through thick and thin , however, we as humans are complex creatures and earlier on in our lives when we are young and lack wisdom we fail to communicate and sometimes work together due to whatever issues each might have . Sometimes, we go through trauma and that messes our entire being but I think even a relationship without marriage can have a similar effect especially if the two haven’t addressed their issues of emotional healing and continue to play along . I suppose the western culture is different from the eastern culture in a way that girls are controlled from a young age to be submissive and keep tolerating manipulation from a very young age . Marriage means living in a nuclear family and moving into the in-laws’s home and completely submitting to them , having children early etc etc . I agree that a marriage or a relationship is a means to an end i.e: a happily ever after . Maybe I am bitter about it all but to me a nurturing friendship is far better option than being miserable in a marriage or a relationship, having said all that I still dream of a happily ever after 😅
I appreciate you sharing vulnerably here, Kulsoom. Countless women can undoubtedly relate to what you wrote. "Happily ever after" is alluring, isn't it? I still believe emotionally that someday, I will arrive, even though intellectually, I know it's not true. I agree that nurturing friendships is fulfilling and worth considering if marriage is right and necessary.
nice dogs, I didn't get far in column, only up to the $12k ring, I will finish and comment. 😁
Cheers, Rob. I look forward to if/when you expand on your comment.
I read yesterday that 86% of people remarry. I couldn’t believe that figure.
I’ve never understood the institution of marriage and never wanted it for myself. The tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people, as I heard someone say—or in your case, in-laws.
I’m a romantic to the core, yet still look at relationships as chapters. Enjoying it fully for what it is, however long it remains joyful, and walking away having learned something from each other. Just because something ends doesn’t mean it wasn’t successful. I think the problem lies in not accepting the true nature of life—that all things are impermanent.
That is a high figure, and it makes you wonder.
Sounds like you always saw marriage for what it is and wanted no part of it.
Your view is wise, the same conclusion I've come to after years of seeing myself in relationship. I agree that the expectation that a relationship should last a lifetime may be the very source of our troubles. And that if we learned to fully experience each relationship and appreciate it for as long as it lasts, then we wouldn't see it ending as a failure but a success and the beginning of a new chapter, as you say. You have an enlightened view, Danielle.
This was great Ryan. I think so many of us are disillusioned with marriage especially after being burned once. A partnership should consist of willing participants, not trapped people.
Feels good to hear we share the same sentiments on the relationship topic. I like that "willing participants, not trapped people." Thanks for taking time to comment.
Interesting read, thank you, Ryan, I agree and have never been married for the reasons you stated. So many people are "brainwashed" into societal systems. I am in a happy, loyal relationship with a man who has similar philosophies, and who has never been married- no kids, either. Several people in my family also follow this philosophy, and they were my role models. I started writing my own version of why I chose to not marry, with my own words and experiences (yet to publish it).
It's interesting to learn about your choice not to marry and that family members inspired you. You're the first to leave such a comment. What we're exposed to, especially at a younger age, seems to significantly impact our adult choices. I'm grateful for your sharing and look forward to reading your essay.
With rates of divorce, the choice seems to be more popular. Some friends are choosing that route, too. Thanks for your thoughtful work! Those who have compassionate, empathetic rebel minds help create a better world!
Hah, I agree wholeheartedly!
By the way, I have two friends that want out of their long-term marriages and feel stuck because they don’t want to get a divorce. So, they linger in limbo. Meanwhile, I am free and living and loving life to the fullest!
This definitely offered an interesting perspective. It sucks you were pressured into marriage, and I lol’d at the future ex-in laws. (Wasn’t that also a line in a movie? Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly.) my husband and I got married with just us and 4 other people on the beach in CA. It was perfect for us and the whole thing cost like $2k including a dress. Personally, I didn’t have a good childhood so I’m very proud of the home I’ve created with my husband, and his love and loyalty has been a big part of my healing over the years, even if I am more of a free spirit who sometimes struggles with feeling tied down. Either way, marriage isn’t for everyone, and it’s good to know it’s not for you. Life’s all about the experiences anyway, and now you know for sure!
I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I'm glad that part made you laugh. I laughed while writing it. I admire you for the healing you've had to do to create a healthy home. As you know, peeling away the layers of conditioning is a never-ending task. You're right - there's no better teacher than first-hand experience. Glad you took the time to comment.
Ryan, I enjoyed reading this, and I think this is a very individual thing. I appreciate hearing your perspective and experiences, and how you personally feel. I remember when we decided to get married, and my husband asked me how permanence felt after he bought me a ring. We were older (48 and 52) when we got married, and neither of us had been married previously. We could have chosen not to have a big wedding, but we had a great time spending the day with family and loved ones. I think we had about 400 attending. We had a fun lunch for out of town guests afterwards at a Christian Retreat Center. We had the wedding at our church, and we didn't feel any pressure to buy expensive rings, we just did what we wanted to do. Some talented friends provided the music. To us, this ended up being a really special day, and neither of us got stressed or demanding. In our case, the spiritual covenant is what mattered to us, and simply sharing joy with people we love. A very dear Chinese couple came from out of state, and he is a pastor, so we loved having him share from Phil 2.
I do remember thinking about the wedding industry, though, and we made some conscious choices about the event, to do only what we both wanted to do. I have been to elaborate weddings where they spend a fortune on a fancy venue and thousands of dollars on the day. I often hope they invest more thought in the marriage relationship over the long term than they spent on this one day. I don't judge others choices, and as I said I liked reading your article and hearing how you feel about a partnership rather than marriage.
I'm glad for the maturing and growth that have happened within us as a result of living out the covenant we made. It's definitely not always easy, and sometimes I call marriage The Beautiful Struggle. We grow through persevering. For us, our faith has been central to our relationship, and we've been strengthened and helped by the commitment we made. It's not the government we care about, but building a life together as a family because we chose to do so.
It's interesting--just recently I wrote a draft for an article. I think I called it Love Stays. It's in my draft folder, but I release things whenever I decide the timing suits, so who knows when I'll do so. Blessings, my friend. Thanks for a thought-provoking article.
I'm glad you shared your experience with me, Susan. I enjoyed learning about what your wedding looked like and what your marriage meant to you. Your approach - keeping faith central to your relationship - is the right one and a mature perspective, in my view. Everything you shared sounds wonderful, but a relationship is not always easy, a "Beautiful Struggle," as you aptly put it. Thank you, as always, for your thoughtful and considered comment.
As someone navigating a separation headed for divorce, I really appreciate your perspectives here.
In reflection, marriage was an "insurance policy" for my wife and I. A way for me to make sure she never abandoned me the way my parents did, and a way for her to live the life she thought she was supposed to lead based on her own conditioning. As soon as a house and marriage came into the picture, our relationship did become about maintaining something instead of nurturing a creative partnership. I wonder if things would have turned out different if I had never proposed. Truthfully, there are many boundaries I could have raised, but didn't, in the name of safety and security.
Not that it would have unfolded any differently. But I'm taking this opportunity to learn my lessons and see what's worth carrying forward. This post certainly has given me much to chew on. Thank you, Ryan!
What a thoughtful and reflective comment, JJ. I'm sorry about your pending divorce. Even when it's for the best, it's painful and can be a traumatic experience. I was profoundly sad and disoriented after my ex-wife moved out. However, your senses appear wide open, and you're curious to see what you can learn and carry forward, as you say. I'm glad the post offered some things to chew on. Thanks for stopping by, and I wish you as little suffering as possible in your situation. After all, you're a human, not a statistic.
These are all valid points.
You invoked the lol at “It’s like a high-stakes game of social chess you can’t win.”
It’s a ‘to each their own’ isn’t it?
But yeah the partnership between two people trumps all else. Otherwise a marriage is a house built on sand.
Glad it made you laugh. I agree that partnership trumps all else. I appreciate your comment, Adam.